GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

idir

Active Member
Does anyone know if this word is related to BZ' [mzgh= GZ'(W)] in Darija?
why use a3rrim/ta3rrimt?
The word is known in ancient Tashelhiyt does it stil in use today?


---

tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]

ogzi, ougzoun: fils
togzit, togzaoun: fille
Faidherbe, Louis L. 1877. Le Zenaga des tribus Senegalaises

tagz'iwt: demoiselle/ jeune dame
[Dic Tm-Fr M.Taifi] & A. Haddachi

ayz'iw: garcon (adolescent)
Dic. Ouargla


ayz'iw: garcon, adolescent
tayz'iwt: fille, jeune fille, vierge
Dic. Mzab
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Timinsiwin a Dda Sin,

Ha ma inna H'ddaci:
TAGZ'IWT: tamet't'utt tamez'z'ant

G umawal n M.Taifi: demoiselle.. jeune feme...

Le meme au MZAB et OUARGLA.

S TFRANSIST=> ADOLESCENT: jeune personne de l'un ou de l'autre sexe
Un jeune homme, une jeune dame




Does anyone know if this word is related to BZ' [mzgh= GZ'(W)] in Darija?
why use a3rrim/ta3rrimt?
The word is known in ancient Tashelhiyt does it stil in use today?


---

tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]

ogzi, ougzoun: fils
togzit, togzaoun: fille
Faidherbe, Louis L. 1877. Le Zenaga des tribus Senegalaises

tagz'iwt: demoiselle/ jeune dame
[Dic Tm-Fr M.Taifi] & A. Haddachi

ayz'iw: garcon (adolescent)
Dic. Ouargla


ayz'iw: garcon, adolescent
tayz'iwt: fille, jeune fille, vierge
Dic. Mzab
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

wich word in BZ' in darija ?
__________________
::
:: tasut n beZ'Z' = igat : baZ'Z'a ::::: baZ'Z'a = le canal de gicleur et le tube ou le liquide coule :: par extension a : qui fuit : qui perd le liquide : etc......................
::
::
:: bZ'awZ' ou lbeZ'Z' : = ceux qui perdent le liquide ( zund tarwa mZ'Z'érnin )
::
:::
:::::::::: les jeunes = arraD'n ::::::::::
::
:: tarraD't = jeune fille
:: arraD' = jeune garçon
::
:: l' ados : : = afS'uk // les ados: = lafS'uk :
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ild n ibudrarn ::::::::::::::::::::::::::
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Does anyone know if this word is related to BZ' [mzgh= GZ'(W)] in Darija?
why use a3rrim/ta3rrimt?
The word is known in ancient Tashelhiyt does it stil in use today?


---

tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]

ogzi, ougzoun: fils
togzit, togzaoun: fille
Faidherbe, Louis L. 1877. Le Zenaga des tribus Senegalaises

tagz'iwt: demoiselle/ jeune dame
[Dic Tm-Fr M.Taifi] & A. Haddachi

ayz'iw: garcon (adolescent)
Dic. Ouargla


ayz'iw: garcon, adolescent
tayz'iwt: fille, jeune fille, vierge
Dic. Mzab



Afra n Yuc fell-awen,
Tanemmirt-nnek a gma Idir,

These words and this comparison is very ineteresting. I would like to add that in the Amazigh dialect spoken in Chenoua and the Dahra mountains (West of Algiers) :

Ah'zaw (ih'zawen) : adolescent, young man.

Hah'zawt (hih'zawin) : adolescent (girl), young girl.

The word of tashenwit (Chenoua) probably comes from the root GZ'W.

The source is "Le dialecte berbère du Chenoua", written by E. Laoust in 1912. You can find that book here :

The Rosetta Project —

If my memory is not mistaken, I think that I have heard "tah'zawt" (girl) even in the Atlas of Blida where Amazigh is still spoken by old people.

As for the root BZ' which gives el-bezz', child, I think that it's the same as GZ'W.

I think that the root GZ'W / BZ'(W) / H'ZW evolved further in Kabyle and gave birth to H'DY :

Some areas in Kabylie say :

Ah'day : boy.

Tah'dayt : girl.

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Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

wich word in BZ' in darija ?
__________________
::
:: tasut n beZ'Z' = igat : baZ'Z'a ::::: baZ'Z'a = le canal de gicleur et le tube ou le liquide coule :: par extension a : qui fuit : qui perd le liquide : etc......................
::
::
:: bZ'awZ' ou lbeZ'Z' : = ceux qui perdent le liquide ( zund tarwa mZ'Z'érnin )
::
:::
:::::::::: les jeunes = arraD'n ::::::::::
::
:: tarraD't = jeune fille
:: arraD' = jeune garçon
::
:: l' ados : : = afS'uk // les ados: = lafS'uk :
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ild n ibudrarn ::::::::::::::::::::::::::





Azul fell-ak a Amallay,

Vous avez dit :

Tarrad't === jeune fille.
Arrad' ==== jeune garçon.

En touareg :

Abarad' === garçon
Tabarad't === fille

La racine BRD' serait dont la forme ancienne du mot que vous utilisez.

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Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

c'est un enfant en Darija Marocain BEZ'/BEZ'A, pl BEZ'AWZ'
child

Azul fell-ak a Yidir,

Even in the darija of Algeria some people use [bezz']. In the darija I know (that of Algiers), I think that the word has a pejorative connotation :

Bezz' (pl. bz'uz' ?) : child (in negative meaning : an insignificant creature) :

Eg.

Bezz' kima huwa iqul-li hakda ? === An (insignificant) child like him would tell me that ?

It's probably a substratum from the Amazigh language that once existed in the area of Algiers (?) before Arabic supplanted the area.

Contrary to some languages where substratum words have generally negative meanings, in North Africa, words of the Amazigh substratum used in Arabic may have different meanings (negative and positive).

In the French used in Algeria (and even in metropolitan French), words from Arabic have generally a meaning of derision and even racism : "fatma" (Muslim woman, from the Arabic name "Fatima"), "fellah" (farmer), "smala" (large family), etc. That's the case even in modern Hebrew in which the few Arabic words used in that language have a negative meaning, and through the reading of South African novels written in English, you would notice that many African words used by English-speakers in SA had a racist connotation.

However, I think that this happens only when there is a violent shock between two communities speaking different languages, and one of the communities feels superior to the other one. As for Arabic and Amazigh, I think that it's not really the case. Arabization took a long time to spread in North Africa, and those Arabized North Africans were Berbers themselves, so there was not really a despise towards Amazigh words in popular Arabic, and those words which remained in that Arabic were rather loanwords and not words used as nicknames and / or insults.

On the other hand, there still are many communities in North Africa which have been recently arabized and whose Arabic is still heavily influenced by the Amazigh language, either in pronunciation or in vocabulary. Generally, those communities who keep using a lot of Amazigh words in their Arabic are people who don't really master Arabic, they still don't know the names of many things in Arabic, and that's why they keep calling them in their old language, Amazigh. But with time, the Amazigh words disappear little by little until their language becomes almost completely Arabized, and even in these cases, there are some fields of activity in which the subtratum of Amazigh words remains strong (for example the activities of farming and some local and specific traditions). These words survive because popular Arabic doesn't have equivalents for them, and even if they existed, the Arabized Amazigh didn't learn them, in other words, the Arabic equivalents of these words didn't have enough time to penetrate the Amazigh vocabulary that deep.

I can give you some examples of these areas in which Amazigh words survived in Algerian Arabic :

Traditions :

Twiza (which comes from "Tawiza" or "tiwizi", from the verb "awes" : to help, to participate) : a work of voluntary participation.

Tawsa (also from "awes", to help) : the amount of money given to a bride or a bridegroom in the feast of marriage.


Traditional food :

Berkukes : a kind of couscous with bigger balls.

Keskas : couscous pan (couscoussier)


Nature :

Tirz'ez' : (from arz'az', wasp, onomatopoeic origin), this word means "hornet". In Algerian Arabic, "waps" is "buzelzel".

Tata : chameleon.

Tighighec, tiffaf : names of plants.


Some words of the abstract :

Tamara : misery (in Tuareg and Kabyle this word means force, extreme necessity).


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Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

La racine BRD' serait dont la forme ancienne du mot que vous utilisez

Ce n'est pas dis, B peut dériver de M : Amarad' --> Abarad'
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Does anyone know if this word is related to BZ' [mzgh= GZ'(W)] in Darija?
why use a3rrim/ta3rrimt?
The word is known in ancient Tashelhiyt does it stil in use today?


---

tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]

ogzi, ougzoun: fils
togzit, togzaoun: fille
Faidherbe, Louis L. 1877. Le Zenaga des tribus Senegalaises

tagz'iwt: demoiselle/ jeune dame
[Dic Tm-Fr M.Taifi] & A. Haddachi

ayz'iw: garcon (adolescent)
Dic. Ouargla


ayz'iw: garcon, adolescent
tayz'iwt: fille, jeune fille, vierge
Dic. Mzab

Chez nous.

Tahchmiyt : Fille Ahschmiy: garcon. jusqu a 12 ans.
Tafroght : fille du 12 jusqu a 18 ans-- Afroch : Garcon de 12 jusqu a 18 ans tennys
apres 18 femme : Tamghart Home: Argaz.
on dit aussi pour une Virgine : Taeyalt.
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Azul fell-ak a gma Yidir,

I would like to write you about an interesting thing : the root GZ'W can be compared with the root GZ'B found in tifinagh.

One of the major problems in decyphering tifinagh writings today is the evolution of the Amazigh language. It is very probable that the words and roots used 20 centuries ago were different in some cases from the roots and words used nowadays, and that there were even roots that disappeared since then. That's why, archaeologists and linguists try to decipher tifinagh by taking into account the archaic forms that some roots and words would have had.

Here is a section of an article written by Chaker, in which the root GZ'B was mentioned. This article discusses the Amazigh titles of officials found in different tifinagh writings :

4. GZB, translittéré en punique par gzby. Attesté à Dougga (RIL 2, 3, 5, 10, 11) et souvent associé à l’affixe -T’ (RIL 3, 5 et 11).

C’est, au dire de J.G. Février, un "personnage énigmatique entre tous" (p. 88). La version punique semble dans ce cas ne fournir aucun point d’appui. Le lexique berbère actuel ne comporte pas, à première vue, de racine gzb. Mais le touareg offre pourtant une piste intéressante, bien qu’hypothétique. Ce dialecte possède un verbe à deux consonnes radicales agez "garder, surveiller, prendre soin de, défendre, protéger..." (Foucauld, I : 489 ; Alojaly 1980 : 63) qui provient selon toute probabilité d’une racine tri-consonantique plus ancienne. Si l’on admet que ce verbe a pu perdre en position finale une labiale (/b/ ou /w/) qui sont réputées être des radicales "faibles" en berbère, le personnage devient peut-être moins énigmatique. Le GZB pourrait être le "surveillant", "le contre maître" ou "l’inspecteur" de la construction. Le rapprochement GZB/agez est du reste étayé par les correspondances phonétiques : /b/, /b/, /w/, zéro que l’on peut relever entre le libyque et le berbère moderne ou entre différents dialectes berbères actuels, par exemple : Ghadames Touareg Kabyle Chleuh rneb rnu rnu rnu = "vaincre" (Cf. également le nom même de la ville de Dougga qui semble avoir connu deux variantes concurrentes : l’une transmise par le latin : Tugga (< T(a)wgga) et l’autre par le libyque : TBGGa, dans lesquelles une labiale /b/ correspondant à /u/). Ceci étant, on doit reconnaître que l’on manque de jalons entre le GZB libyque et agez touareg et que cette dernière forme est assez isolée et ne se retrouve pas, apparemment, dans le reste du berbère.

Sur le plan de sa morphologie précise, GZB n’a pas la forme canonique du Nom d’Agent (préfixe m-) alors que le touareg a bien amâgaz : "gardien...". Mais il pourrait cependant s’agir d’un schème - plus rare mais attesté pour les verbes trilitères : aCCaC (Cf. argaz, "homme") ou aCC:aC (type sémitique qatta:l). Dans cette hypothèse, GZB serait relu : (a)gezzab ou (a)gzab.


Chaker says that it's perhaps the "archaic" form of present-day root GZ' (from which the verb Tuareg agez', to watch, is derived), but he gives in the same section the example of "rneb" (to add, to defeat) used in Ghadames, which is the archaic form of "rnu" (used in all the other dialects).

That's why I think that it's easier to identify "GZ'B" with "GZ'W" (which gives "agz'iw") rather than identifying it with a hypothetical archaic form of present-day agez', as, nowadays, there is no other form of agez' which contains a third consonant and which could demonstrate that the hypothetical lacking consonant of GZ' was a or [w].

As for the meaning, it seems plausible that the title of a Numidian title had something to do with "watching, supervising" (the work), however, I also think that it's plausible that "GZ'B" may have had a meaning of "young man", in the sense of "prince" or "disciple" or so, i.e. someone with a lower status than the king (GLD > agellid) and who is, therefore, younger than the king.

Here is the complete version of the article, it's very ineteresting :

TERMINOLOGIE LIBYQUE DES TITRES ET FONCTIONS

Ar timlilit a gma

Rzut ghef udeg-nnegh === Visit our website :

Tiddukla Tadelsant Imedyazen
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

azul fllak Amastan13,

That could be a possible explination because it could be the first responsibilities of a young adult in ancient times [Today in some contries it is a duty of a young man to enter the army]
Thank you for the link I also saw that Salem Shaker wrote something about this, the more information is gatherd on todays(and ancient) tamazight the better we can answer the questions.
For example I do not agree with what he said about MNKD being a form of MNKL in Tamashek these are two different words if studied well.


Azul fell-ak a gma Yidir,

I would like to write you about an interesting thing : the root GZ'W can be compared with the root GZ'B found in tifinagh.

One of the major problems in decyphering tifinagh writings today is the evolution of the Amazigh language. It is very probable that the words and roots used 20 centuries ago were different in some cases from the roots and words used nowadays, and that there were even roots that disappeared since then. That's why, archaeologists and linguists try to decipher tifinagh by taking into account the archaic forms that some roots and words would have had.

Here is a section of an article written by Chaker, in which the root GZ'B was mentioned. This article discusses the Amazigh titles of officials found in different tifinagh writings :

4. GZB, translittéré en punique par gzby. Attesté à Dougga (RIL 2, 3, 5, 10, 11) et souvent associé à l’affixe -T’ (RIL 3, 5 et 11).

C’est, au dire de J.G. Février, un "personnage énigmatique entre tous" (p. 88). La version punique semble dans ce cas ne fournir aucun point d’appui. Le lexique berbère actuel ne comporte pas, à première vue, de racine gzb. Mais le touareg offre pourtant une piste intéressante, bien qu’hypothétique. Ce dialecte possède un verbe à deux consonnes radicales agez "garder, surveiller, prendre soin de, défendre, protéger..." (Foucauld, I : 489 ; Alojaly 1980 : 63) qui provient selon toute probabilité d’une racine tri-consonantique plus ancienne. Si l’on admet que ce verbe a pu perdre en position finale une labiale (/b/ ou /w/) qui sont réputées être des radicales "faibles" en berbère, le personnage devient peut-être moins énigmatique. Le GZB pourrait être le "surveillant", "le contre maître" ou "l’inspecteur" de la construction. Le rapprochement GZB/agez est du reste étayé par les correspondances phonétiques : /b/, /b/, /w/, zéro que l’on peut relever entre le libyque et le berbère moderne ou entre différents dialectes berbères actuels, par exemple : Ghadames Touareg Kabyle Chleuh rneb rnu rnu rnu = "vaincre" (Cf. également le nom même de la ville de Dougga qui semble avoir connu deux variantes concurrentes : l’une transmise par le latin : Tugga (< T(a)wgga) et l’autre par le libyque : TBGGa, dans lesquelles une labiale /b/ correspondant à /u/). Ceci étant, on doit reconnaître que l’on manque de jalons entre le GZB libyque et agez touareg et que cette dernière forme est assez isolée et ne se retrouve pas, apparemment, dans le reste du berbère.

Sur le plan de sa morphologie précise, GZB n’a pas la forme canonique du Nom d’Agent (préfixe m-) alors que le touareg a bien amâgaz : "gardien...". Mais il pourrait cependant s’agir d’un schème - plus rare mais attesté pour les verbes trilitères : aCCaC (Cf. argaz, "homme") ou aCC:aC (type sémitique qatta:l). Dans cette hypothèse, GZB serait relu : (a)gezzab ou (a)gzab.


Chaker says that it's perhaps the "archaic" form of present-day root GZ' (from which the verb Tuareg agez', to watch, is derived), but he gives in the same section the example of "rneb" (to add, to defeat) used in Ghadames, which is the archaic form of "rnu" (used in all the other dialects).

That's why I think that it's easier to identify "GZ'B" with "GZ'W" (which gives "agz'iw") rather than identifying it with a hypothetical archaic form of present-day agez', as, nowadays, there is no other form of agez' which contains a third consonant and which could demonstrate that the hypothetical lacking consonant of GZ' was a or [w].

As for the meaning, it seems plausible that the title of a Numidian title had something to do with "watching, supervising" (the work), however, I also think that it's plausible that "GZ'B" may have had a meaning of "young man", in the sense of "prince" or "disciple" or so, i.e. someone with a lower status than the king (GLD > agellid) and who is, therefore, younger than the king.

Here is the complete version of the article, it's very ineteresting :

TERMINOLOGIE LIBYQUE DES TITRES ET FONCTIONS

Ar timlilit a gma

Rzut ghef udeg-nnegh === Visit our website :

Tiddukla Tadelsant Imedyazen
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Agoram & Amastan13.
Chez nous
jeune fille/adolescente se dit "tikiwst"

An other word which may e related could be placed in the context. Is a word used in the Middle-Atlas/moyen-atlas:

Akeswat - KSWT
grand- aîné, plus âge ~ aussi mghur MGHR
akeswat n teqbilt: notable, personnage influent, chef de tribu (comme amghar n teqbilt)
netta ad igan akeswat n aytmas: c'est lui l'aîné de ses frères

source: M.Taifi Dic. Tamazight-Francais
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Agoram & Amastan13.


An other word which may e related could be placed in the context. Is a word used in the Middle-Atlas/moyen-atlas:

Akeswat - KSWT
grand- aîné, plus âge ~ aussi mghur MGHR
akeswat n teqbilt: notable, personnage influent, chef de tribu (comme amghar n teqbilt)
netta ad igan akeswat n aytmas: c'est lui l'aîné de ses frères

source: M.Taifi Dic. Tamazight-Francais


Very interesting indeed :)

So we can make a hypothesis that root GZ'B evolved into GZ'W and later into KSW in Middle Atlas.

The fact that "akeswat" means "the eldest son" or "influent member of the tribe" is very important.

As for the transformation of [g] into [k], it exists in many dialects. For example in some areas of Western Kabylie, [g] becomes [k] in some demonstratives :

Wagi ===> waki.

Indeed, the change of [g] to [k] is easy due to the resemblance that exists between the two sounds and they both have the same place of articulation in the mouth.

The tranformation of [z'] into : I think it may be attested in one example : az'iz' (tarantual, Tuareg) ===> tissist (spider, Kabyle), although I'm not sure.

As for the comparison between Ancient Amazigh MNKD and Tuareg "amenukal", even Chaker disagrees with it. He says (in the same article I sent you) that it was not impossible to think that [d] can change into [l], but he just says that there had been some linguists who were tempted to assimilate "MNKD" with "amenukal", while he is skeptical about that.

Ar timlilit a gma,

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Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Agoram & Amastan13.


An other word which may e related could be placed in the context. Is a word used in the Middle-Atlas/moyen-atlas:

Akeswat - KSWT
grand- aîné, plus âge ~ aussi mghur MGHR
akeswat n teqbilt: notable, personnage influent, chef de tribu (comme amghar n teqbilt)
netta ad igan akeswat n aytmas: c'est lui l'aîné de ses frères

source: M.Taifi Dic. Tamazight-Francais



tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]

ogzi, ougzoun: fils
togzit, togzaoun: fille
Faidherbe, Louis L. 1877. Le Zenaga des tribus Senegalaises

tagz'iwt: demoiselle/ jeune dame
[Dic Tm-Fr M.Taifi] & A. Haddachi

Peut-on approcher ces deux mots de agizul/aguzal qui en tacêlhîyt signifie soit "le petit de taille" soit le "courageux"?
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

Je pense pas Agoram

Excuse moi Amastan I understood Shaker wrongly with that, but there was a version given with a word from Tamashek
NKD: to walk in front. The comparison was made because de l and d switch smetimes in tamazight and the signification of the word also. The answer can be found in al amazigh languages; and also Tamashek if you look for the signification of NY/NK 'to mount' you will find the answer.Many words in tamazight lost a last letter which could be emphatic -t or -d & -d'
for example thief: M-KR <= M-KRD'
and in this case: M-NK <= M-NKD : 'imperator'

As for the z' and s this also occurs in the example z'ku/sku to build and also az'et't'a/ as'et't'a/ aset't'a ;-)
The essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère gives many examples how words transform withing tamazgha.
 
Re : GZ'W :: adolescent :: jeune fille/fils

tagz'ewt: jeune fille
chleuh médieval [Essai sur la phonologie du proto-berbère]
Pourquoi dis tu "chleuh médieval". ?

Ce qualificatif existait il à l'époque ?

-------------------------------------------------
Dans mon parlé (Ait Wariaghel _ Rif) on dit :

Taghzerit' / Tighzeriyin --> jeune fille/adolescente
Aghzeri / Ighzeriyen --> jeune homme/adolescent

Ah'amoc (fem : Tah'amoct) / Ih'amocen (fém : Tih'amocin) --> enfant

Ah'odri / Ih'odriyen --> jeune en général.

Tafroght : fille du 12 jusqu a 18 ans-- Afroch : Garcon de 12 jusqu a 18 ans tennys
Se dit chez nous pour désigner tout simplement un garçons -- > Afrogh & fille --> Tafroght

Il y a aussi le mot Ah'anja / Ih'anjan --> garçons & Tah'anjet' / Tih'anjin --> fille
 
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